Just a thought, but if you got two Gravis Mousesticks, which controlled F/A18 or A10 as if it were under remote control, and then switch to "external" or "tower" view, you'd have what you wanted. Just tried it and it works. Mind you, I also crashed the aircraft. Having spend a sizable part of my life controlling aircraft from the inside, I can't get my head around doing it all backwards. It's OK when it's flying away from me, but ... Er, what's this got to do with FB ? Phil.